All about sin (everyone's favourite thing to talk about!)
Sunday was Sarah's 22nd birthday. I have a thing for older women.
The new HM Mag arrived today, the 20th anniversary issue. The letter I wrote them about Extol appears in it! Cool!
So I'm about to start an open ended theological discussion here...
This is one issue that has been plaging my mind since I became a Christian. It is the issue of sin, its origin, and God's role in connection to it. Most reputable evangelical scholars hold to the following points:
1) God is fully sovereign
2) God created everything (except sin)
3) God elects and predestines certain individuals for salvation
4) Those who do not accept Christ are condemned to Hell because of their unbelief
Now, there is a distinct problem with these points. Notably, [1] appears to contradict [2] (If God is fully sovereign he must be somewhat responsible for sin) and [3] appears to contradict [4] (How can people be held accountable for unbelief if God chooses who will receive salvation?)
Hopefully without being blasphemous, I present two theories for your perusal in order to explain these things. But keep in mind that theologians have argued about these things for hundreds of years and I have no formal theological training. I do not claim to be an authority that I am not.
Reconciliation of [1] and [2]:
There is one thing God cannot do, and that is do anything that would make him not God. Therefore, he cannot sin, and even deeper, anything he creates cannot be him. God cannot make himself, cause if he could he wouldn't be God.
Therefore, anything God creates must have an "area of separation" from him. This area of separation includes all the traits of God that are solely his: omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, existance outside of time, eternal perfection, etc. Now, this "area of separation" forces the creation (specifically the intelligent creation, angels and humans) to either worship God, (based on his superiority) or to rebel against him.
Since eternal perfection is a trait only of God, his creation can (and arguably will) falll short of this, now matter how temporally perfect that creation may be. however, it is clear that not all of God's creation will fail in this manner, since anything created by God is ultimately for his glory.
Therefore, sin exists because the "area of separation" between God and his creation allows for it and makes it possible, and also establishes that it will happen, since creation cannot be eternally perfect like God is.
(I would like to acknowledge at this point that the above is based mostly on a conversation I had with Jerry Bolton. These are just as much his ideas as mine, and neither of us have reached final conclusions yet)
Now, for [3] and [4]. We must establish two things here: first, predestination is true. It is an unarguable biblical fact that God specifically chooses whi will be saved. (See Romans 8-9, Ephesians 1, and pretty much the rest of the New Testament for proof of this). Second we must accept that people being condemned to hell glorifies God (See Romans 9). God does not like condemning people, he hates it, but the condemnation satisfies God's justice, therefore giving him glory. That is hard to swallow. Swallow before we move on.
The above two points still don't answer the question though, "How can God condemn people for unbelief if he chooses who will believe?"
Note that unbelief is a sin. It is the only sin that results in condemnation, all other sins can be forgiven. The only reason unbelief can't be forgiven is that the unbelieving person doesn't ask for it. People are condemned for sinning.
We are born with a sinful nature, however we are not born with sin. Our sinful nature is inherited from Adam, but a baby cannot sin. It lacks all the things that make sin possible: reasoning capabiblities, moral judgement, etc.
Now this is where it gets difficult, and this is why we are held accountable: We have the choice of whehther or not to sin. We are born with a sinful nature, but until we conciously do something that is immoral, we have not sinned. However, unfailingly every human gives into their sinful nature and commits a sin, therefore ensuring their damnation (For the wages of sin is death...)
Christ of course, was the only human who conciously chose not to sin, a result of him also being fully God (God cannot sin). He was unjustly punished by humans, and his death satisfies God's judgement, if we believe. But anyone who has sinned is incapable of believing, because they have been blinded by sin... and we all choose to sin.
Therefore, without God's intervention, we would all throw away our ability to eeveer know him at our first sin, and we do. That's why God himself sets apart certain people to believe in him. That is called mercy.
"But isn't it unjust for God to cendemn everyone else?"
No, because, they have chosen their punishment when they sin. God's mercy does not contradict his justice, the sins of believers are still paid for, but by Christ.
"So why doesn't God save everyone."
I don't know. Don't think I ever will. I could be wrong on a lot of this stuff. We are dealing with a topic that is not spelled out in capital letters in the bible. And we must accept the fact that "his ways are not our ways" and that we cannot understand everything.
Any thoughts? On the theories or otherwise, leave a comment
12 Comments:
First off. I only write something because people to--or encourage it in plain invitation in your blog writings.
Statements you make often, such as the one quoted: "Now, for [3] and [4]. We must establish two things here: first, predestination is true. It is an unarguable biblical fact that God specifically chooses whi will be saved"
Just because one holds to something and can find Scriptures to back it up does not mean it is an "unarguable fact", and the predestination angle is talked about a lot less in the Bible than most proponents of it admit.
To be honest, this topic is actually one that bores me and I've never understand that so many like studying it and talking about it. I'm saved. Great, moving on and I'll do whatever it takes to get everybody else I can saved. I'm not saying this is a waste of time for you or anyone to write about, but I study it less than many. I think there's more important things to do with the Word (like evangelising is more important to me than wondering if it's God's will for any I evangelize to be saved). Etc, so instead of sitting down writing a researched response at this time, I'm going to copy and paste something I found a week ago. I think this is vital because the passage you cite to say God predestins some to hell--whether he does or not isn't my focus--but the passage doesn't say that when read/used in context, and I see many Calvinists use it--but if read in context, Romans 9 is about nations--not individuals' salvation/damnation.
In response for now (if you're interested in hearing it-- I also beg to differ that "most scholars" see it this way because I can find a plethora that feel diffefently) Anyway check this out for now. Quantity of opinions doesn't guarantee the truth of a matter for any side of an issue or doctrine, other than lending credibility and likelihood of it being true.
On Romans 9 (NOT written by me, just copied and pasted):
"The emphasis in this chapter is not individual salvation, but national calling. Understanding this is critical to properly interpreting the passage. In Rom 9:6-29 Paul engages in a midrash, i.e., and interpretaion of Gen 21:12, which is cited in verse 7 "It is through isaac that your seed will be called." Throughout this passage Paul interprets the meaning of "called." Essentially, his question is, who is the called? The reason he does this is to answer the issue of verse 6: "it is not as though God's word has failed." Paul is addressing a real life situation in Rome, where Gentile believers question if God has forsaken Israel, since they have rejected Messiah and the Gentiles have taken their place. Paul says, no, God has not forsaken them.
First, he teaches that there is a people within the people. Not all Israelites are among the called, just as not all of Abraham's seed was called, but only Isaac is the seed of promise. This does not mean Isaac is saved and Ishmael is damned. In fact, Ishmael was blessed by God. Gen 17:18-19 clearly states that Ishmael would live under God's blessing. We have every reason to believe that he is in heaven today. That Isaac is the child of promise does not mean that Ishmael cannot be saved; it merely means that Isaac is the one who will birth the nation of promise, Israel.
Later, Paul shows that Jacob became the child of promise, not Esau. This is not because of works, for God decided who would be the child of promise before they were even born. Again, this is not individual salvation, but national calling. Likewise, when Moses asked to see God's glory, God said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." In other words, God granted Moses' request, but not because Moses asked or wanted it more than anyone else, but because it was proper to do in light of Moses' calling. It was entirely God's decision as an act of mercy.
When verse 16 says "It is not of him who wills or of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy," the "it" is not salvation but national calling, the "him who wills" is not one who wants to be saved, but refers to Moses, who willed to see God's glory, and the "him who runs" refers to Jacob, who ran to kill the animal and bring it to Isaac to receive the blessing before Esau. Jacob did not receive the blessing because he ran and beat Esau to it. He got the blessing because God chose him to be the father of the nation of Israel. Look at the blessing in Gen 27:28-29. It has nothing to do with salvation, but includes part of the promise God gave Abraham in Gen 12:1-3.
As for Pharaoh, he already hardened himself before God ever hardened him. God foreknew Pharaoh would not repent, so He used him as a vessel of dishonor to glorify Himself. Don't ask God why He still blames us because that is a question that does not come from faith. To even ask that question is an indictment on the questioner, as the text quoted shows. Paul's response is a quote from Isa 29:16 and 45:9. The real reason why Israel rejected Jesus is not because God predestined them to it. The answer comes in verses 30-31. It is because they pursued not by faith, but by works. They have been willing and running, but not believing.
So this passage does not say that we do not have a choice. It is actually a call to believe. If you do, you are a seed of Abraham and called according to His purpose."
okay, i read your post, and all i want to do is barf and barf and barf. (just for your info, this is coming from an ex-christian)
i mean, really!!! what about free will?? and how can it be free will if god is standing over you with a gun to your head, saying "believe in me or die (or worse yet, suffer thru torture in hell)"?? for it to be true free will, there needs to be no consequences.. ie. "love me, or not love me, no strings attached"
did god create sin? well, if he indeed create people, then yes he created sin. but if god is such a fair and loving god, why create millions of people who are sinful, and just randomly pick a special few to save, and send the rest to eternal torment? if god doesn't like sending people to hell, then he should have created a perfect people.
if god really is perfect, you'd think all he'd be capable of is creating perfection. in that sense, did god sin in not living up to his perfection?? isn't it a more human/sinful trait to create imperfect things?
for that matter, isn't it a sin of pride and gluttony to even want to create a whole race of people whose sole reason for existing is to glorify yourself and have them worship you? whether he's worthy of it or not, that seems like a sinful intent at least to me. so my question to you is this: is god himself a sinner? of course the bible says no, but if we look at god's actions rather than his words (as we have to so often do with people)...
and if it's all just predestination (something i never believed in), then why try to evangelize, convert people? i mean, if it's predestination, then those few "elected" ones will find their way to you, right. and what if you are a "good christian" (for lack of better term) for all your life, believing, "accepting jesus into your heart", blah blah, etc, but at the end of it, you're just not one of those predestined few? how is that fair, and how can you ever really be certain of your eternal standing?
I guess I'll respond paragraph by paragraph
First, I'd like to note that its impossible to be an "ex-Christian..." considering the Bible makes it very clear that God finishes the work he starts in people. By saying you're an "ex-Christian" what you're really saying is that you never really understood the gospel to begin with. I hope you'll later understand why I say this.
"Free Will," I don't think it exists the way most people think it does. We can choose things, but our choices only go so far, considering God is sovereign, and he doesn't sit around passively. Remember that we need faith to believe and faith itself is a gift from God. I think the gun analogy is a bit off. If you were in a fire and a fire fighter came up to you and said, "Grab my hand now!" I don't think you'd hesitate.
To say that in creating people God created sin is to say that people themselves are sin. That's not the case. God created Adam and Eve "perfect," as far as anything that is not God can be perfect. Of course anyone less than God himself has room for error. God did allow sin in his plan. The plan for redemption through Christ existed long before anything was created. God also know that there would be people condemned. It's hard to swallow, and don't think that I haven't questioned this, but God is glorified through condemnation. His wrath is appeased by that.
The whole point of my argument was to show that God himself is unique in his perfection. God is God only because of his unique traits. If we had God's unique traits we would also be God. It would defy God's nature to make another of himself... it's just not necessary. God lives up to his perfection. Our (note this is on us) failure to live up to the measure of perfection God gave us doesn't mean he failed, it means that we did.
If any human demanded worship it would be sinful. God deserves worship based on his unique traits and the fact that he created everything. It is fitting and natural for him to be worshipped. For anything less than God to be worshipped would be an abomination.
The point of evangelism is twofold. First, Christ said to do it. Second, people won't come to God unless someone tells them. Sinced I'm a finite human I have no idea who the elected people are, therefore I should preach to everyone so that those that are appointed to salvation will hear and believe. (see Acts 13:42-48... the whole assembly heard, but only those "appointed to eternal life" were saved).
It doesn't really matter whether a Christian believes in election and predestination for them to be true. They are plainly and clearly taught in scripture. However, to answer your last question, those Chistians I know who do beleive in predestination tend to be the ones who are "really certain" of their "eternal destination." I know that by my faith in Christ I am secure in my salvation, and my faith is proof of God's Spirit in me, proving my predestination.
That is why I say its impossible to be an "ex-Christian." If a person is elected, predestined, and God's Spirit is working in them deleloping faith, they will not turn away. In fact Romans 8:39 says that nothing is capable of taking a believer away from Christ, not even themself.
I hope that you urge to barf has gone away. I also hope that you will come to really know Christ. Thanks for reading.
i call myself an ex-christian because i once really did believe, whole heartedly. i was very certain of my eternal destination.. trust me, i understood the gospel, i still do. i just no longer subscribe to that theory. there's just no way that i even believe in god anymore. although i do still find theological discussion fascinating, in a fairy tale type way. where does my eternal soul stand now? gee, that depends on if you're in the "once saved, always saved" camp or not. as for me, i'm not sweating it.
i think it's ridiculous to say that condemnation glorifies god. all it shows is that he's willing to torture otherwise good people just because they chose not to believe. sure, everyone is a sinner. sure, god can't have sin around him. then he shouldn't have created it to begin with.
if there is no free will, then we are just all puppets on a string, hoping we are just one of the few god decides to favour.
as for the fire fighter (and thank you so much for not saying fire *man*, one of my worst pet peeves).. it would be more like if the fire fighter actually set the building on fire, and then offered to help you, but only if you swore to love him and dedicate you life to serving him. sure, i might take the hand, but it's still not a praise worthy situation.
okay, so you're saying that god didn't create sin. but he created imperfect people who are capable of sin (because anything that isn't god simply can't be as perfect as god), am i reading that right? still don't get your point.
i think that if god is perfect, all he can create is perfection. like a beautiful rose can only seed other beautiful roses, not poison ivy. so god created adam and eve, imperfect and therefore capable of sin. so really, i think god really did create sin. and if the whole plan for christ was thought up even before creation, then that means god knew what he was doing (and of course, being god, he would have known), that he was going to create sin, or the capacity for sin, so he'd have to have a back up plan. i don't think a perfect god would need a back up plan. why did god even create to begin with then? if he knew he wouldn't get perfect people to spend eternity with, that he'd have to sacrifice so many to the fires of hell just for the few predistined ones..
urge to barf continues.... sometimes i have to remind myself that some people actually believe all this. it really is unbelievable to me.
Noah...The ex christian who wants to barf gains my sympathy...you do not respond in a way that is empathetic to them, nor do you allow for scriptural interpretations other than your own. You are not a theologian, you are a christian. I have read your responses and I do not think they are wrong. However, I debate the necessity of your correction on anonymous' "ex-christian" status...it undermines their position before you know a fricking thing about where they are coming from or why they got there. Was a multiple paragraph answer what anonymous actually needed? I'm reading their posts...and frankly I doubt it.
It looks like I'm the sixth on a long list of multi paragraph posts. I held off on commenting on this.
Where is the balance here? I actually think the whole predestination debate a bit of a waste of time. My mother went to bible college when she was my age, she is no longer following God closely. Whether or not she is saved, she's not living the full fruitful life that God wants for her. My mom could safely be called an 'ex-christian' ... and that isn't a good place to be, predistination or no.
I'm with my sis, I empathize with the anonymous friend here. Life's not as linear as all this, and I think it's possible that this post (and the ensuing comments) are an adventure in missing the point.
I think this is all less about whether someone is IN the saved door or OUTSIDE the saved door... more along the lines of Who or what they're walking toward.
Noah... among all things you have to keep reminding yourself: in love, not in 'correctness' and 'sounds theology'. They are good things, but without love and concern they can and almost assuredly WILL fall on deaf ears.
Well, considering three of my most respected friends have implied that I sounded like a jerk responding to annonymous... I guess that means I sounded like a jerk.
That wasn't the intention, sorry.
Jerry's point to me: Speaking the truth in LOVE, is a good one. However I have the fear that Christians tend to be opposed to discussing doctrine once it begins to possibly cause division. This may not be the best idea, since we are called to "watch [our lives] and doctrine closely."
Read Matthew 13: 1-9; 18-23. I think Christ's words will explain the issue better than mine ever could.
bye for now.
Hey Noah.
That verse you quote all the time in Timothy says to watch OUR doctrines (and lives) closely--not everybody else's doctrines.
(Sigh).
Of course, the reason we are supposed to watch our "Life and doctrine closely" is in the rest of the verse: "becauce you will save yourself and your hearers."
There's also all those parts about holding each other accountable, and all those charges from Paul to preach the truth.
The reason I wrote the original post was to foster (hopefully) positive discussion on an extremely important issue. Many people I know are held back from committing to Christ because they question the nature of God. Many Christians I know question the nature of God. It's important to discuss God's nature, and to reach biblical conclusions about who he is and how that relates to us.
When it gets down to nit-picking and personal badgering it all becomes quite useless and un-Christlike.
Again, I apologize for any unintentional insults, but I do not apologize for posting about biblical doctrines that other people may or may not "like."
hey, i'm totally not insulted at all :) i'm not here to change your views (which would not be waivered by some anonymous person), and of course, my views are unchanged as well. i just commented 'cause although i no longer believe this stuff, i do find it interesting to discuss. i think that everyone, at some point in thier life, questions the existance and nature of god. no insult taken at all! if anything, i'm a little rude myself :) ah, but that speaks to MY nature LOL
Hey noah! Why sigh and think that just cuz other people think you're being harsh means you are?
If i listened to what others said all the time id be dead lol
if it's your sincere opinions, and you stand by them... don't back down!
Even if they are your trusted and respected friends. Who cares?
You posted this blog for a reason because you had thoughts and feelings, don't take that away. stand up for what you believe.
and your friends / everyone posting has to remember as well that not everyone is going to agree on scripture/biblically.
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